Loot Council
My original plan was to start my blogging weak really lazy. Just grab an old draft, spice it up with some recent events et voilà. Unfortunately, this didn’t work. I have used up most of my drafts and the few left were either horrible (“Recruiting Raiders”) or not so wow-related (“Better than achievements Pt. I: Books”). So I looked at some old posts and found DKP – Curse or Blessing? and I decided to pick up the topic of loot distribution once again.
Why? Since my DKP post I have left my old raiding guild and joined a new guild and with this guild I said hello to the happy shiny world of a loot council.
In this post I’ll explain how the loot system in my guild works and how this system compares to a DKP system.
So, how does the loot system I raid with work? Actually I haven’t found this huge post where an officer wrote down all the loot rules in scary detailed way. I guess that just doesn’t exist here. But I’m raiding here for quite some time and that’s what I have picked up so far:
- Loot gets distributed by officers, every raider can place a “Need” or “Greed” bid on BoP items, BoE gets sold in the AH most of the time.
- The officers base their decision for “Need” items on various facts: DKP points (so it’s not a pure loot council system), raid attendance, how many items did someone get over the last hours/days, is it a best in slot item or not.
- “Greed” items go to the person with the highest /roll
- Every raid awards me 50 DKP. Every item I get through a “Need” bid costs me 50 DKP. “Greed” items cost zero DKP. Being on the substitutes’ bench awards me 50 DKP as well.
Advantages: The officers do a really excellent job. I never feel like something gets decided over the head of the raid, often officers ask interested raiders how bad they need an item and often loot distribution is the product of a friendly discussion or a /roll rather than just a decision without any comments. Also the officers try really hard to get loot to as many different people as possible during a raiding night. There isn’t really any drama over loot that I would know of.
Disadvantages: Sometimes I feel a lot less in control when it comes to gearing up my character than I’m used to with a DKP system. I can’t spend more if I really want an item, so I get items when an officers wants me to, not when I want. Also the system is biased to some extent. This is not really a bad thing, it could be looked at as “rewarding people for high raid attendance over a long time”. But as someone rather new to the guild in many cases I already know I won’t get the item if a more senior member will place a “Need” bid as well. Also the DKP part of the system is a bit silly. People with high raid attendance tend to get all items they want before all other raiders, which is not so loot council style. Or in other words: It might be possible someone with 100% raid attendance will gets 3-4 pieces of Tier loot before I see even one, just because my raid attendance is around 70%-ish. I absolutely think high raid attendance should be rewarded, but on the other hand mixing DKP and loot council can sometimes lead to a slightly confusing system. Last disadvantage: Too many people try to get good loot with a “Greed” roll to save up some points.
How does DKP compare to loot council: From what I’ve seen until now, I can’t really decide yet. The one thing I can definitively say: Loot council is leading to a lot less loot drama. Even if someone doesn’t get an item he wanted, officers will assign the next item to him, and getting loot to many different leaders leads to a much more content raid climate.
What I absolutely don’t like is that I can’t spend more points on an item if I really really want it. A) because this has always helped me get items that would help me a lot and B) because those nasty bid wars also had a good side: they made people spend points, and even if raiders with many points would still get the item, they had to pay more for it which led to a much more even playing field.
Also getting “Greed” loot for no points is still a confusing concept for me. Lets say there are healing mail bracers dropping in Ulduar. Those bracers are a minor upgrade for my gear, but still an upgrade. If I place a “Need” bid I will most probably get the bracers but spend all the DKPs I earned that night and make really important upgrades like Tier gear even harder to get. If I place a “Greed” bid I will probably do /roll with all enhancement/elemental shamans and the item might go to a person who will never ever use it. In a DKP system I could spend tons of points if I absolutely wanted an item or just a tiny amount for a small upgrade but in any case get the item before off-spec greeders.
Resources:
So once again guys, tell me about your loot system and how you like it. Everything going smooth or loot drama week after week? I’m especially interested to hear from raiders using a loot council without any point system.
A Coin of Ancestry
Looking For Multitudes
Toravon the Ice Watcher (25 player)
1500 Dungeon & Raid Emblems
We use Suicide Kings. It’s a system that belongs somewhere in the spectrum between rolling on everything, and DKP.
I always explain it to new raiders like this…
It’s like waiting in line for a cheeseburger at a fast food restaraunt. When a cheeseburger is ready, they ask the first person in line. If they want it, they take the cheeseburger, get out of line, eat it, and get back in line at the end. If they don’t want it, the teller asks the second person in line, and so on. If you are not in the raid, your spot in line stays the same, and everyone moves AROUND you (this is key).
We have a simple guide, here: http://www.guildofawesomeness.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=35
It has some pro’s and con’s. You can hold out, and float to the top of the list, if you really want an item. You can take lots of items but you’ll always be near the bottom. So one good item, or a few mediocre items, it’s totally your choice. It also causes people to think about taking an item, because they suffer moving to the back of the line. And if they take stuff randomly, they will always be at the bottom which means they are getting stuff nobody wants and aren’t affecting others with their poor choices.
It also has the potential to handle dual-spec very easily. If people can take any gear they can equip, it’s their choice whether to sacrifice their place in line for their offset. We declare our progression dungeon (Ulduar currently) to be main-spec only, but people can bid on anything in any other dungeon.
It has the inherent effect that you don’t get a second piece of gear in the same run unless all those like you, that were now ahead of you, have also gotten a piece (and fallen behind you), or it’s something they don’t want.
We’ve been using it for a couple months now, and it has had a great effect on the even gearing of our guild. It sacrifices a little “here and now” by not allowing you to win 10 rolls for upgrades in a row, but gains overall by making sure upgrades are spread around and are hopefully more significant in boost (since the system rewards you for NOT bidding on small upgrades by not punishing you with moving to the back of the line).
A few kinks, but a great system overall.
Very interesting and to be honest I have never heard of this system before. I personally would love this system because it supports exactly how I like to get loot: Pass on small upgrades and save up for a big one.
What I don’t like:
-It doesn’t really reward high raid attendance over a long period (as I understand it).
And a curious question: How this this work out in reality? Do the positions in the ladder change all the time or are there people at the top forever and people at the bottom grabbing a lot of stuff because they are at the bottom anyway?
On another note: I wonder how the loot system are distributed by regions. Having played on multiple EU german realms, DKP is by far the most popular system in my region.
In practice it works out quite well.
There are usually a couple people at the very top of the list that are either intentionally camping there for some big ticket item, or that person is very well geared (and probably not a hybrid, haha). Either way, they’ll get first dibs at the really coveted items, like Kel’Thuzad weapons, and it’s a valid reward for their lack of looting prior.
Some of its cons, like the lack of reward for attendance, tend not to be big issues because they are actually subtly represented in the mechanics. The biggest issue is that you can’t force, or exaggerate, their effects (“+50 DKP”). When you run, you’ll invariably have some people in the raid that were at the top of the list, as well as some from the bottom. Because you only move positions to the spot occupied by other people in the raid, you leapfrog people that aren’t on. So if you have 10 people in the list, and your 3-man raid are the people in 1, 5, and 9, when position 1 loots, he’ll drop to 9, and 5 moves up to 1.
The fastest you can move from the bottom of the list to the top is if a number of items equal to the number of the people in the raid were given out, and someone ABOVE (ahead of) you always took the item. It’s never quite that fast, of course. I would estimate 50-75% of that speed. So if you start at the bottom, after one wing of Naxx you’ll probably be 1/2 way up. After another wing you’ll be 3/4 up. After another wing you’ll be in one of the top spots (of the people in the raid). You tend to slow down as you get near the top.
As a leader, one of the toughest issues I face with it, is where do new people go? Specifically PUG people. Any system like this sacrifices someone’s ability to the “100% true fairness” of having an equal chance on any item, just via rolling. So you can’t roll, but you gain an increasing advantage, that eventually guarantees you can get loot. So you trade some of your uncertainty, good or bad, for some certain good. Putting new people somewhere random in the list is more strictly fair, since they have an equal chance to go anywhere, randomly. But it pisses off people at the top, who have been saving their spot, if they come in above them. But it’s not totally fair to put them at the bottom either, since these systems only provide an advantage over time, if the PUG person isn’t someone who will raid with you again.
One other thing I didn’t mention about the system is that you can have multiple lists (“lines”). We have four, one each for our current Progression 10 or 25 man dungeon (Ulduar), and ones for all our non-progression raid content (Naxx+OS+VoA) in both sizes. So you can burn your spot in Naxx10 to build your 3rd offset, and it has nothing to do with getting that sweet drop off an Ulduar25 boss. You could use multiple lists any way you want too, such as one for each class of tier tokens, or one list for all BoE/orbs/plans/etc junk.
Overall, the biggest problem is people’s initial feelings on it. It actually works BETTER than it sounds on paper (and it doesn’t sound bad to begin with). The mechanics of it all gently influence the gearing of your guild very positively. It covertly favors getting bigger upgrades in peoples’ hands. It secretly keeps any one person from getting all the loot that many people need/want, while making sure most people get something. People that aren’t on have no effect, positive or negative. It causes people to think about their loot choices, and it pushes the path of a person’s looting future soley to their own responsibility. It lets you “Choose Your Own Adventure” for looting; fewer big-ticket items, or more moderate-quality items.
I think it’s quite clever.
NOTE: This post sounds almost like a sales pitch, haha. I didn’t make this system or anything. I don’t have anything to gain from advocating it.
Suicide Kings does reward attendance, I used it for a bit a long time ago and was pleased with it. The way it rewards attendance is you will move up over people who are not currently raiding with you at the time when people above you get loot.
Say you have five people:
A
B
C <– Not in the raid.
You
E
If A takes a piece of loot, it rearranges the order:
B
You
C <– Not in the Raid
E
A
So C retains his spot as third from the top and is rewarded for making it that high in the order when he comes back to raid, but you are rewarded for raiding the week that C isn’t there by jumping over him when loot is distributed.
My 25-man raid uses a variant of the Suicide Kings method, called the Double Suicide Kings, or DSK.
It is a lot like SK, except that you have two numbers in the list, a higher number, and a lower number. When you bid, you can choose which of them you want to use. If you used your lower number, and get outbid, you can choose to then outbid with your higher number (if it is high enough). This method still has everybody below the number bid move up, moving “around” the spots of those who are not present.
This, I think, works better than the standard SK, as it allows you more flexibility in prioritizing items, rather than a simple yes/no. The way I tend to use my numbers is to bid for most things with my lower number (this leads to a lot of churn at the bottom of the list), while holding on to my higher number for when something really big comes along (Torch of Holy Fire, that last Tier piece I need for my set, or whatever). And, if I do burn my higher number getting what I really wanted, it becomes my lower number, and what was my lower has already worked its way back up the list a bit.
We have an addon written by one of our raiding alliance members which makes keeping track of this very easy. New folks are added in with a “/roll 500 1000″, and get their two numbers equally spaced above and below the middle of the list. When loot comes up, the list goes out, for all to see, with all the spots for those present shown, and each individual gets whispered what their two numbers are. An item goes up for bid, and it is done publicly. If you want it, then “/raid “. Highest bid takes the item, and that number goes to the back of the line. The public bidding means that considerate raiders can check to see how big an upgrade an item is before they outbid somebody else, as well as being able to see who could potentially outbid them in a situation.
All in all, I like it better than the DKP, Loot Council, or “just /roll, dude” methods I have seen used and abused in some other raids I have attended. Attendance is rewarded, it is completely unbiased, it allows an individual to make a weighted decision (“Yeah, I want it, but not that badly. All yours.”), and works to fairly quickly distribute loot.
I really don’t get this loot council + DKP thing you’re talking about, since it would lead to exactly the kind of crap you’re seeing (people passing on upgrades in the hopes of getting them at no cost with a good Greed roll).
This is how my favorite loot council worked:
Each piece of epic loot would be announced with a raid warning in the general format “[Item] send tells to [Officer].” You would then whisper the officer in question with whatever item you’d be upgrading from. The item would then be awarded based on a combination of: (a) who would get the biggest benefit from the upgrade; (b) which player’s upgrade would best benefit the raid as a whole, e.g., someone who’s there 90% of the time versus someone who’s there 50% of the time; and (c) potentially other factors such as giving it to the person who does their fight research versus the guy who wipes the raid ’cause he can’t move out of the fire.
Bringing DKP into a loot council defeats the whole point of the system–getting the gear where it will most benefit the raid and reward people who put forth the most and best effort.
Any time that you have a responsible group of players (i.e., people who aren’t just going to hand out gear to themselves and their friends), I strongly prefer a loot council over any other system.
Actually it’s kind of misleading if I call the points I earn DKP, because the way those points are used has nothing to do with a DKP system.
The best way to describe those points is just take it as a way to measure raid attendance. And in that regard, the amount of points is just one of many points an officer considers when passing out loot, very similar to the true loot council you describe.
Which factors are most important for our officer’s decisions I can only guess. I think the more raiders want a specific item, the more important our points get, because it might just be easier to base a hard decision on “facts” (=points). Over the course of a whole raiding night though the “social” factor of a loot council system (=loot to as many different people as possible) works pretty well. The only flaw I see is that already being 20-30% below 100% raid attendance mostly creates a gap of points nearly impossible to close.
Suicide kings = win.
We use an EpGp loot system (Effort Point/Gear Point). I guess the way to describe it if you’ve never heard about it or ever used it, is a dumbed down DKP.
When you attend a raid, kill a boss, or wipe learning a new boss, you earn Effort Points. Any item that drops costs X-amount of Gear Points. Your Gear points, divided by your Effort Points (or maybe its the other way around) = Your Priority Rating (or PR). PR determines who gets an item. If an item drops we want, we whisper the word “bid” to our EPGP Manager. Whoever has the highest PR, wins the item. Effort points are then deducted and contributed to Gear points. The less your EP and the greater your GP, the lower your PR is.
The way this varies from DKP, DKP systems often times favor those who raid the most. If you attend every raid, never miss a beat, never rotated..blah blah blah. You are generally constantly in the high end of the DKP and near the top.
In the EPGP system, it is meant to help keep raiders fairly even across all boards. So a raider who is at every raid, every week may have the same or very close to the same PR as a brand new raider who’s only attended 2 -3 weeks worth of raids or a more casual raider who only raids 3 -4 nights a month.
This is because a casual raider will spend less of his EP and gain little GP, which keeps his PR high. While a raider who is more hardcore is not only spending his EP but is also maintaining a steady inflow of EP as well. Now that’s not to say that a casual raider will always be above a hardcore one. It just simulates that a casual raider can attend the same raid as a hardcore raider and win loot against that person.
Because PR is not based on amount of EP & GP, but rather a percentage of the two, you are able to have this slim variant between hardcore and casual raider.
I notice this system becoming more widely used than DKP. From a personal standpoint (and being we are a casual progressive raiding guild) it’s more fair and does appeal to new recruits (I think it makes recruiting slightly easier). Because the new raiders coming in understand they will quickly join our veteran raiders on the higher end of PR.
I’m not sure what our Decay % is right now. But the Decay prevents point hording. The more EP you earn and the little you spend the faster your points decay. Your PR can actually drop below someone who has taken several items within a 30day period, if you have taken zero in the previous 30days. This is due to their EP and GP constantly changing…and your EP decreasing with no increase to your GP.
I hope I haven’t confused you too much in this wall of text.
For things like the legendary healer mace we used a variety of options. We did a half Loot Council/Healer Vote. After a lot of officer discussion and our personal choice we felt it best to take an overall vote which included the Officers voting on which healer they believed deserved the mace and a spontaneous healer vote of who they felt deserved it. They were not allowed to vote for themselves.
This was done in hopes to eliminate or at least reduce drama. That didn’t work out so well. lol. Of course. But in such a case for a Loot System use for a Legendary we favored a semi-loot council/vote.
Thanks for taking your time and writing up a long comment. I’d love to see how this plays out in raiding reality. The points you made outlining the strength of EGPG, namely working with a ratio and thus bringing different styles of loot influx for a raider and raid attendance much more in line, those points sound really good to me. Especially combined with decaying points.
Most of the time there isn’t just any system that can get everyone happy. The biggest problem is always being somehow fair to different grades of raid attendance. High raid attendance should absolutely by rewarded in my eyes. But not too much, or else people with a more casual raid attendance or some 2 weeks of exams will have a hard time closing up to the “hardcore” raiders.
EP/GP in my mind is the way to go. I am in officer in a progression (not quite hardcore, but we still are running some kind of raid in guild almost every night, if not every night) raiding guild, and we used this in BC. Once Naxx opened and everyone was basically on the same level playing field, we started doing a loot council type (assigning based on the biggest upgrade) which DID help gear people, but the problem I found was that people would be upgrading from greens to purples while those who took the time got stuck in blues. We had a lot of loot drama on this, as people who were always raiding got stuck in blues or the early Naxx gear, while those that would just (convienently, IMO) show up for 25’s in green/blues would suddenly get BiS. Trying to reward the people who actually show up and go, we went back to EP/GP.
Following is (HOPEFULLY) a concise and clear run down of the basics of how we used the system, as posted on our guild website. We have modified the “off” rules to credit half gp now that duel-specs are live, and also institued a new policy that new recruits accrue EP, but can only use PR to acquire items if and ONLY if no established members on. Note, the way we use the system does not ever remove EP for getting gear, EP only is reduced by the weekly decay. The best part about this who process is that the designed EPGP add-on works smoothly, can be sorted by PR, and the list pulled up can be filtered to ONLY include those currently in the raid.
Initially all members are credit with 1000 EP (earned/effort points) and 50 GP (gear points) . Taking the 1000 and dividing it by 50 gives an initial PR (priority) of 20. As a member participates in guild raids, they will receieve EP based on each boss downed, which is a set amount pre-determined by officers based on the boss. So after downing the first boss in Naxx, for example, a member will move from 1000 EP to 1300 EP, moving their PR up to 26. (Note: PR is credited AFTER loot is distributed). EP will continue to accumlate for each boss downed for each raid, and is credited for every time a boss is downed (i.e. you can recieve 300/week for downing Anub’Rekhan, not just 300 for the first time you down him in guild).
Once a boss is downed, loot will be posted in raid, followed by “on”. If the item is an upgrade that you want for your CURRENT spec (some descretion may be allowed for people to “on” and off-spec, see below about officer determination on what is best for the guild progression), simply type on in raid chat. If multiple people “on” the item, the loot will be giving to whoever has the highest PR. GP based on the item will then be credited to the member recieving the item.
If, however, no one in the current group needs for their ON spec, the loot will then go to “off”. If you want this item for an off-spec, at this point simply type “off”. Gear will TYPICALLY be given to off spec based on the simple highest /roll, with special situations reserved for officers descretion (i.e. hit gear for a holy priest for a hit set to help on the 25 man Naxx mind control bosses). In the event of a special circumstance it will be relayed why the highest /roll did not recieve the loot. Our goal is to create the best group we can for all progression, if the officers believe that someone does “need” an item for an off-spec, please refrain from outbursts, and if necessary direct issues to an officer.
So, for a quick example (using the Naxx-Arachnid Quarter — items and GP figures obviously made up ):
XYZ joins the guild, and gets 1000 EP and 50GP
XYZ enters Naxx, and helps down Anub. BAMF trinket drops, and XYZ on’s, as does ABC. ABC is an established raider, and has 5400 EP and 245 GP, or a 22 PR. ABC recieves the trinket and gets credited 100GP. Everyone in the raid then recieves 300 EP.
After Faerelina is downed, the BFGun drops. Again, ABC and XYZ on. Now, since XYZ has 1300 EP and 50 GP their PR is now 26. ABC now has 5700 EP and 345GP, or 16.5 PR. Because XYZ now has PR, they recieve the BFGun, and are susequently credited 150 GP. Everyone in the group again recieved 300 EP.
Lastly, the group moves on and downs Maexenna. The SoS helm drops, which no one in the group needs for current spec. ABC and XYZ both off.
Since this is an off-spec, the gear would be given to whoever ends with the highest /roll, instead of automatically going to ABC since he has 17.4PR (6000EP/345GP) over the 8 for XYZ (1600EP/200GP).
Each week a 10% decay will be applied to all toons. This will decrease BOTH EP/GP, however GP can NEVER fall below 50.
This is interesting.
I think key to the decay rate, mathematically, is not to avoid point hording, but to avoid what I would call an “issue of scale”. If you had some raiders that had raided every week for a year, and your points didn’t decay, you would start to see them all have the exact same priority, and it would be difficult to change, because of scale. A new person with 50 EP and 10 GP, will make a significant change in PR if 10 points are moved from EP to GP (i.e. 5 -> 2). A person with 5000 EP and 1000 GP makes almost no change in PR if you move 10 points (i.e. 5 -> 4.94). So without decay, all your “core” raiders would have practically the same priority, which would fall into an order that was very difficult to change, and it would become an almost static list.
Well, kinda. But the system is NOT like DKP. There is no subtractions from either EP or GP (unless, of course there is an administartive error). Besides the decay, neither ever move down, they only move up. But the observation is correct, that people who clear both Naxx’s for 10 weeks straight having 91,000 in EP are not going to move around on their PR much. However, this is the 2nd advantage that regular raiders get, that not only is their PR typically going to be higher, but when they do take a piece the PR rating is not going to be nearly as affected as someone who is a new raider. In some ways I think this is where the system COULD fail, as newer people suffer a lot more for getting gear meaning that established raiders can almost always beat them on 1 out of 2 pieces back-to-back, BUT, practically a new raider is probably not going to be going up against someone with that much a gap in EP more than once a raid anyways for BiS class gear — the more experienced raider should have already gotten Maexena gear, for example, but may be waiting on a Kel drop.
Our guild just uses a pure loot council system. When I say “pure”, I mean, everyone in the raid has a say in who gets the drop. Usually, if a piece drops that someone needs, we just have them link their current item in raid and decide who needs it more.
Occasionally, we get some loot whores that suck up useless items that don’t help them, other than their wow-heroes score, but they usually don’t last long in our guild. Why is it always the healers and (Ulduar) caster weapons, when they have the hammer off of KT? Yeah, we go through a lot of shitty healers…
To get back to the point, this system works for us, as there’s no penalization for taking an upgrade. We used a DKP system for a while in Naxx and it only led to people passing on obvious upgrades, holding out for that thing that they REALLY wanted. How does that help your raid?
Of course we have a rule where, if you get something and the next drop is something that you can use, the next person who can use it, get’s it. I haven’t seen any drama over this system yet, we do 10s, but it might not work fora guild doing 25s.
How fast is this system? For me it sounds like it might sometimes eat up some time. And as you say, that might not at all work for 25 man raids. For my guild it is pretty important to handle loot extremely fast and having the raid pull the next group of trash while the loot distribution begins. That might be an advantage I forgot to mention:
The bidding starts as soon as the officers loot and we place our bids for all items that dropped instantly through the Bidder addon. If a boss drops three items a window will pop up showing me those three items. I then place my “Need” or “Greed” bids, close the window and I’m ready to continue through the instance in a few seconds.
Yeah, this “camping” scenario was something we saw, at first, in Suicide Kings as well. There are still a few people that hold out and take only a few key upgrades. Personally, I have looted two full sets of epic gear while they have been camping, and I think it’s a little foolish. Over time (a few months of using Suicide Kings), most people now will bid on anything that is more than just a trivial upgrade. The real key for us, is that we have seen a significant decline in people claiming they “need” items that more informed people know they do not.
@ Moonora,
My guild also uses the epgp system. EP points however, are never deducted. Your EP points steadily increase, (while decaying slightly, we have the decay set at 10% per week). You gain EP and you gain GP for items on a continual basis.
One small variant we have put in place is that truly rare drops need to be discussed. If you are a new raider with us, don’t roll against the progression raiders on really epic drops. The fact that you’re seeing Naxx25 and blowing through it in little time is due to the progression guys hard work. We’re happy that you grab all the Bonescythe gear etc, but when the Focusing iris drops, it’s not for you.
My point is that we use this system together with a little good old common sense.
Adam’s last blog post..Eye of Eternity Attempt
Common Sense FTW.
If you don’t include common sense in your setup, even as a backup, something is wrong.
One of the most interesting things about loot system discussions is that people usually cite moving to some system because it is “more fair”. Really, the most truly 100% fair thing you can do is roll on everything. RNG discussions aside, “random” favors everyone equally. All these systems serve to trade away some of that fairness, to gain direction. We actually want our systems to be deliberately NOT FAIR. We want to be able to influence looting, whether that means that people don’t get the Focussing Iris, that once you loot you don’t get more until others loot, or that the fact that you attend more gives you an increased chance to get loot.
We have simple DKP system. Works for us very well for last 3 years.
You earn DKP by raiding – 3-5 points per raid. Normal is 4, good performance in 5, poor performance is 3. Very hard first kill might actually bring 6 points but it’s rare.
We do open bids for items – everyone can bid as much as they want, you can raise your bid. Minimum is 5 for any item, 2 for off-spec item or second tier set item. If you are new to the group, you get 10 points. If you don’t have points and nice item drops that no one else wants, you can bid with debt. But you can’t ever bid more points then you have right now if someone else wants the item.
System is simple and works for us. Maybe because we actually don’t have power hungry people who raid for epics only. Most of the time if tanking item drops, we talk on tanking channel who wants it badly. People pass for each other, or just bid if they really want the item and no one feels hurt for it.
There are some instances when loot could be a bit better used by the group – goes to least active person and stuff, but we don’t make fuss about it. Usually people understand “We are the group” and work in good interest of everyone involved. After all our name is “Unity”.
And probably best part of it for everyone involved – people feel some amount of control over loot distribution. If someone really wants some item – he knows he can bid as much as he wants.
I really really miss the open bidding. Since my very first raiding guild I have never seen it again and always been in guild that work through whispering to officers, be it in a DKP or in a loot council system.
This guild I was in years ago cool, but with some immature folks as well. So I really did see those nasty bid wars for an item or people just pushing up the price to annoy the bidder who wanted it.
But then again, open bidding led to a lot more social control than if the bids would have been hidden. Very often if prices were climbing up some one would intervene and we would discuss who of the two guys would benefit more from this specific item.
Nostalgia incoming!
I raid on Silver Hand with the Leftovers alliance, we were profiled in wowinsider last year http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/07/16/15-minutes-of-fame-more-than-mere-leftovers/
Leftovers has a loot distribution system that works pretty well, somewhat similar to a suicide kings approach, we’ve used that “your place in line” metaphor in forums many times, to get people out of the mindset that their points are currency.
http://leftoversraiding.org/index.php/topic/34391/1/lop-3.1.html
Short version: A raider can express 3 different levels of interest in loot, shroud, standard or save. Shroud costs half of the points you have accumulated, highest shroud wins. Standard costs 10 points and all who called standard /roll off for it. Save costs 10 points as well and all who called that /roll for it. Save is almost entirely a courtesy thing “I’d take that rather than see it get melted, but if someone really wants it I want them to be able to standard over me without forcing a shroud”.
Shroud beats standard beats save. Some of our charters (I think we have 35 of them atm) use a custom addon to handle the loot rolls and points.
The only thing I hate about a loot council with no type of points was highlighted back in BC days. I had to take a break, and am only now getting to raid level again. When we raided it was decided solely based on what would help the raid the most, which often meant the people who contributed the least to their own gear. (I remember getting passed over for tier 5 multiple times as a warlock because I had frozen shadowweave and the other warlocks didn’t have as good gear. (Even though I picked up tailoring at 70 and powerleveled specifically to be better for the raid)
I use a loot council system where we link each item in /rw and attach it to a given officer who would know about that particular type of loot. I wouldn’t even begin to attempt to guess what gear is really an upgrade for a fury warrior, for example.
It doesn’t work out too bad, the only problem I find is that it is hard to track who has been getting what loot, and who has been passed on loot a few times.
Loot is distributed usually based on a person’s attendance, previous loot received, and how large of an upgrade it really is.
To be completely honest, the main problem I’ve been having with this system has been giving myself loot. I like to avoid petty loot squabbles, but the fact of the matter is, when the loot master wants to give himself loot, people will attribute it to “he just got that loot because he’s an officer”, rather than, “he got that item because he makes 100% of raids and rapes DPS”.
A system like DKP or something with set points would help me out personally, but other than that, our loot council works fine.
Macbook
Macbook’s last blog post..Macbook Needs Guest Posters!
Not to be a simpleton to this… but our loot system is pretty simple — even in progression raids.
1 epic per night
1 tier piece per night (these two do not count against one another)
anyone who can use it /roll
the only real exceptions are if you have won something that night, but no one can use another drop later, then you are rewarded it as well (and any subsequent drops that match this)
there is some discretion as to what is an “upgrade” for your class, but i guess there has never really been anything that has come up as a real conflict, i.e. hunter vs rogue weapon, etc…
i know it can reward people with low attendance, but it seems, on our low horde population server, pugs reign and there has to be incentive.
Eleazor’s last blog post..Ok, I Lied…
We used to do something like this, but then the random number generator got the best of us. We had a healer priest, who wasn’t even one of our best healers, that at last count won 18 out of 24 items he rolled on. To top it off, he had a tendency to roll on items that we questioned whether he actually needed or not.
One mediocre player effectively had all the gear, so we either needed to get into interpersonal drama by creating rules specifically to combat his rolling, or move to a system that ensure that loot was being spread out better, while making people take it upon themselves to choose more wisely whether they need it.
And for us, I looked for a system that was more self-sufficient. I never cared much for having to keep track of who got what items that day, there’s too much room for error (and I get forgetful). We also started using it before 3.1, and were searching for methods to incorporate dual-specs into looting, since we feel that flexibility is an asset to our raiding style.
We use a pretty straight-forward loot council. If we want something, we link what we will be replacing in raid chat and then the council decides. They look at how big an upgrade it will be, how often someone is there, and how much everyone has already gotten in the raid. If they cant decide, then we roll… though usually the roll is only between the top 2 or 3 people that could use it the most. We still have loot drama as i am sure everyone does. Since i am the ONLY resto shammy in the guild that runs with any sort of regularity… i tend to miss out on all the drama.